Cant Z 1007 and Macchi 200 camouflage questions

[kippenhan]

I have the Supermodel 1/72 Cant Z 1007 (single tail) and would like to make a 175 Sq. aircraft, this unit has the insignia of the two elf like guys on a bird, which is from the Sky Models decal sheet.

On the Sky Models instructions, it states that this aircraft had the C11 Scheme. In Christopher Shores Regia Aeronautica book, he shows a color profile of 172 Sq. plane (same insignia) in what appears to be a C3 camouflage. In addition, the white band is further forward in Shores book, while the Sky Model instructions show yellow cowlings.

So my question is this, I am more interested in the C3 camouflage from Shores book, however I am unsure if this is correct. I have never seen a photo of this airplane so I can not verify the placement of the white band. In addition, the Color Guide of this website does not list the Cant Z1007 as having the C3 camouflage.

Can anyone help?

One more question. Shores also has a color profile of a Macchi 200 of 72sq, 1 Stormo, Italy 1940 that has a C4 scheme. The Color Guide states that this scheme was used on the Macchi 200, so can I assume this profile is correct?

Thanks for any help

Mike K.

[Chris Busbridge]

I do not have Chris Shores book, but according to Chris Dunnings "Courage Alone" book, the Z.1007 could have had the C10A scheme, applied during 1940-42, which seems right for the early single tail Z1007. The C11 scheme is a two colour variant of the so-called 'spinach' scheme, applied from 1942 onwards and used on the later twin-tailed Z1007. It confirms that the C3 scheme is in error.

The book also confirms that the C4 scheme was used on the C.200.

I tend not to take SkyModels colour instructions too seriously and try to look elsewhere for more accurate information.

[D520]

Well, I will totally agree with my fellow Chris concerning Sky decals instructions! The plane you are looking for is on page 11 of the French magazine "Avions" n°79. It shows the C10a camouflage and the wide white band which starts just before the insignia and which goes to the wing root.


Then on the old immagini B5, page 26 you have a picture of a CANT from the same unit 172 sqad. but with the regular white band and yellow cowling as the rule was to be applied early 1941, camouflage is also C10a.
I have made this "Acione " in 1/48 and the painting was a lot of fun..... so I wish you good luck in 72 nd scale. Regards, jean.

[Rick]

Ciao Jean
The band on the CANT is probably yellow, which was a marking used by RA in the campaign agaist England. for istance it is present in a photo of a Ca 133 and probably was present also on the Fiat Cr 42 85-9 MM 4326.
Please verify where the CANT photos you attach were taken.
Riccardo

[D520]

Ciao Riccardo. The pics were taken in Chiévres during the ill fated Italian move to the channel front. You are probably right for the band color but the caption on the picture says nothing about it. A presto caro amico, jean.

[kippenhan]

Chris and Jean,
Thank you for the help.
Jean, I have never seen these photos and they are a big help as this is the plane I would like to model.

I do have two observations.

From your comments, you seem to think that the two planes have different middle bands. If you look at the photo on the left, behind the airman fourth from the right (wing root) you see some white, so I think this is the same wide band as on the plane in the right photo. Also, the plane on in the left photo has a tarp over the top and engines, so this is covering the top of the band. The tarp is also on the background aircraft in the left photo.

Chris, you thought the band would be yellow. However, if you look at the left photo, the band is the same brightness as the white of the wing insignias, thus it makes me think the band is also white. And if I am correct in my interpretation of the width of the band on the plane in the left photo, then the band on the aircraft in the right photo is also white.

Please let me know what you think of my ideas. This is an interesting discussion and I think you two for offering your thoughts.

Mike K,

[kippenhan]

I mixed up Chris' and Riccardo's comments. Riccardo made the comments regarding the color band, thank you.

Chris, thanks for clarifying the camo color. I do not have Courage Alone, I tried to find a used copy, but they are too expensive.

Mike K.

[D520]

The two pictures are from the same plane and they show the same band, once covered with tarpaulin , the other one without it. I did not scan the pic of the plane on Immagini book, because they have obviously been taken during the offensive on greece and albania and were of topic from your project. Regards from France, jean.

[Chris Busbridge]

C. Dunnings 'Courage Alone' book was, at the time of its publication, a very thorough and important study of the RA. So much more printed material has been published elsewhere since, such as that from GAE, that I feel its main value today is the rather obsessive level of text based information found within it.

[kippenhan]

Thanks so much for the information, you guys have been a great help.

The plane in the photographs above would have yellow cowlings, is that correct?

Thanks

Mike K

[Stefano]

Kippenhan wrote:

...you thought the band would be yellow. However, if you look at the left photo, the band is the same brightness as the white of the wing insignias, thus it makes me think the band is also white. And if I am correct in my interpretation of the width of the band on the plane in the left photo, then the band on the aircraft in the right photo is also white.

The band was painted yellow for recognition purposes, following indications by Luftwaffe, once Italians arrived in the Channel area. Since RA had no stocks of such a paint in the field, RA personnel used RLM 27 paint given by the Germans. This colour (FS33655) was a lemon yellow which appeared very light in b/w photos, especially if a yellow filter was used (see for instance Helmut Wick's Bf 109E "Horrido"). I suggest you to compare the band with the insignia white goose, in the right photo posted by Jean.
The white band worn by the aircraft which passed to 175^ Squadriglia was officially prescribed by RA since early 1941. In the following image you can see one of these birds with full ID insignia for the period: the white band, white wingtips and black St. Andrew cross inboard the underwing fasci (North Africa theatre until mid-1941), and yellow cowlings (April to October 1941).



As for the camo, the C10A 'policyclical' scheme was applied in the following way: over the yellow background were sprayed brown spots, and then the green over, following the same pattern but only partially covering brown spots. Until now, there is no evidence nor testimony for a C3 pattern on CZ.1007s.

Stefano

[Stefano]

Kippenhan questions, part 2.

Here is the original photo of MC.200 72-1.



It's hard to establish the camo pattern and the actual colours by this image, but we can elaborate some supposition about them. Being the photo taken in May 1940, and judging by the simple headrest strut, this aircraft was a Macchi-built serie I, and had MM within 4500-4593, like these contemporary '200s of 54° Stormo. All those aircraft wore the scheme C8 (note the tail in the foreground).



However, some had the yellow oversprayed by medium green, as we can see on the other aircraft above and in this C8-camouflaged '200 in Russia.



The reason of this probably lay in an order of Ministero dell'Aeronautica dated 8th September 1937. Based on the Spanish experience, three camo pattern were indicated for each season: A - Spring, B - Summer and early Autumn, C - late Autumn ad Winter. Since it was not so practical to paint all the aircraft three times a year, the same order stated that the aircraft were ordinarily to be painted with "A" pattern, with suitable modifications in case of war. Sadly the enclosures to this order, containing the three schemes, had been lost. However, testimonies suggest that the pattern were: A - green spots over yellow background, B - dark green spots over blue-green (or light/medium green) background, C - dark green and brown spots over blue-green (or light/medium green) background. So, it is probable that, in May 1940, the camo was modified as above to suit the incoming summer, and the foreseeable war too. Since the contrast among the tones in the top image is rather low, I believe that 72-1 had been treated in a such way.
Comparing the photo with Squadron profile, also note that:
- 72-1 wore the Italian tricolour on the tail: the green on the fin, white and red on rudder as above (the white cross was introduced in the following June, to avoid confusion with French aircraft). This no means that the cross wasn't later applied on this aircraft.
- the individual no. was red, the rhomboid hyphen was diagonally-divided, red upper and black lower.
- the underwing fasci were white on black background, the upperwing ones black on white background.
- the tailwheel was retractable, the sliding canopy had not top frame and the rudder was not compensated.
- last, in June 1940 the 72^ Squadriglia and 6° Gruppo were in Sicily for operations against Malta, and not beside the border to France!

I hope to have not confused you...

Best Wishes
Stefano