Can anyone tell me what the colour the cowlings were on the 21 squadron SM81's as illustrated on page 105 of the book 'Wings over Spain'? They seem to be a lot darker than the adjacent camouflage and the firebronze collector ring at the front of the cowling. The dark colour, which I think may be black, seems to extend around the full girth of the cowling.
Thankyou.
Aeroal.
SM81 in Spain
Vince,
Thank you for your prompt response. Apologies for the lack of clarity. Yes, I meant 21 Stormo. The aeroplanes in the photo, one also appears on page 91 of Postiglione and Innocenti's 'Colours and Camouflage Schemes of the R.A.,1935-1943', appear to have been originally finished in the colonial scheme of Cachi Avorio with a densely field applied mottle of maybe Verdi Mimetico 1 and Marrone Mimetico 2 similar to Scheme E1. Of course the base colour could be Giallo Mimetico 2, but the undersurfaces are definitely the same colour as the upper surface background coat - my justification for the presumption of Cachi Avorio. The wheel spats also have the red pinstriping. From my original reference photo of this machine, 21 - 35 in 'Wings over Spain', the cowlings are as dark as the black of the roundels. I am unsure as to why they would paint a darker green on the cowls alone, unless it was to hide oil and heat staining from heavy use over Spain. As for A.D.I., I was eagerly awaiting publication of a volume on the SM81 when I built my preceding Pipistrello, several years back. Lets hope one will appear soon.
The model has been ready for paint for some time. This colour scheme has been puzzling me off and on for six months, and every time I feel I have it satisfactorily reconciled, something else pops up, to sow yet another seed of doubt in my mind. I will go with your information and use Verde Mimetico 3 and put myself out of my self imposed uncertainty. Thanks for your assistance.
Kind regards,
Aeroal.
Thank you for your prompt response. Apologies for the lack of clarity. Yes, I meant 21 Stormo. The aeroplanes in the photo, one also appears on page 91 of Postiglione and Innocenti's 'Colours and Camouflage Schemes of the R.A.,1935-1943', appear to have been originally finished in the colonial scheme of Cachi Avorio with a densely field applied mottle of maybe Verdi Mimetico 1 and Marrone Mimetico 2 similar to Scheme E1. Of course the base colour could be Giallo Mimetico 2, but the undersurfaces are definitely the same colour as the upper surface background coat - my justification for the presumption of Cachi Avorio. The wheel spats also have the red pinstriping. From my original reference photo of this machine, 21 - 35 in 'Wings over Spain', the cowlings are as dark as the black of the roundels. I am unsure as to why they would paint a darker green on the cowls alone, unless it was to hide oil and heat staining from heavy use over Spain. As for A.D.I., I was eagerly awaiting publication of a volume on the SM81 when I built my preceding Pipistrello, several years back. Lets hope one will appear soon.
The model has been ready for paint for some time. This colour scheme has been puzzling me off and on for six months, and every time I feel I have it satisfactorily reconciled, something else pops up, to sow yet another seed of doubt in my mind. I will go with your information and use Verde Mimetico 3 and put myself out of my self imposed uncertainty. Thanks for your assistance.
Kind regards,
Aeroal.
I'm not sure if you checked the Gallery, however Luca Bossi completed a 21o Stormo SM.81:
http://stormomagazine.com/ModelArticles ... _LB_1.html
The undersurfaces are Bianco Avorio with a field applied camo over top. Note the wheel spats and pinstrips.
Regarding the color of the engine cowlings, I'm not sure why the cowlings were painted dark green or even possibly black, there were no tactcial reasons for it and certainly nothing discusses it in directives. In Postiglione and Innocenti's book, on p.90, take note of the Ca.133 engine cowlings. An interesting question, I'll check around.
http://stormomagazine.com/ModelArticles ... _LB_1.html
The undersurfaces are Bianco Avorio with a field applied camo over top. Note the wheel spats and pinstrips.
Regarding the color of the engine cowlings, I'm not sure why the cowlings were painted dark green or even possibly black, there were no tactcial reasons for it and certainly nothing discusses it in directives. In Postiglione and Innocenti's book, on p.90, take note of the Ca.133 engine cowlings. An interesting question, I'll check around.
Vince,
Thanks for your assistance once again. I take your point about the Ca.133 on page 90 of Postiglione and Innocenti's book, although I don't know how relevant A.O.I. would be to Spain. However, if both machines were painted in Italy, then the appearance of the common colour in both theatres would be easily understood.
Looking at the top photograph of the vic of three Pipistrelli on page 93, the nearest of which being the 'Bat' beautifully modelled by the talented Lucca Bossi, I would suggest that the cowling colour seems the same as the black St. Andrews cross on the rudder.
Can I also draw your attention to the lower illustration of SM81, 21 - 43, on page 21 of the same book. This is again a uniquely and artistically painted aeroplane, clearly configured as a night bomber, with a black undercarriage and wheelspats. The only cowling visible appears to be the same colour as the Nationalist roundel. Food for thought, or the return of uncertainty!
Finally, a short time ago I came across an advert for a book by a French publisher, I think, on the inside front cover of the excellent French 'Replic' magazine, The subject was Italian Aviation in the Spanish Civil War. The cover portrayed a flight of SM81's diving on their target. I have been unable to retrace my steps to this, but would be grateful if anyone knows of the title or address of the supplier.
Thanks again.
Aeroal.
Thanks for your assistance once again. I take your point about the Ca.133 on page 90 of Postiglione and Innocenti's book, although I don't know how relevant A.O.I. would be to Spain. However, if both machines were painted in Italy, then the appearance of the common colour in both theatres would be easily understood.
Looking at the top photograph of the vic of three Pipistrelli on page 93, the nearest of which being the 'Bat' beautifully modelled by the talented Lucca Bossi, I would suggest that the cowling colour seems the same as the black St. Andrews cross on the rudder.
Can I also draw your attention to the lower illustration of SM81, 21 - 43, on page 21 of the same book. This is again a uniquely and artistically painted aeroplane, clearly configured as a night bomber, with a black undercarriage and wheelspats. The only cowling visible appears to be the same colour as the Nationalist roundel. Food for thought, or the return of uncertainty!
Finally, a short time ago I came across an advert for a book by a French publisher, I think, on the inside front cover of the excellent French 'Replic' magazine, The subject was Italian Aviation in the Spanish Civil War. The cover portrayed a flight of SM81's diving on their target. I have been unable to retrace my steps to this, but would be grateful if anyone knows of the title or address of the supplier.
Thanks again.
Aeroal.
sm 81
I agree.
I had already seen the photos.
I believe only the landing gear are blacks with a white circle with in black the airplane number in fly section ( 1; 2; 3 ...)
the bottom is light gray, as seen in other photos .
I considered that the plane was white ivory and in various times progressively painted.
I left the red stripe painted on the white landing gear , not yet become black like a pair of boots....
is also in the spirit of the crew to remember the homeland.....
tank'you for your appreciation.
luca bossi
I had already seen the photos.
I believe only the landing gear are blacks with a white circle with in black the airplane number in fly section ( 1; 2; 3 ...)
the bottom is light gray, as seen in other photos .
I considered that the plane was white ivory and in various times progressively painted.
I left the red stripe painted on the white landing gear , not yet become black like a pair of boots....
is also in the spirit of the crew to remember the homeland.....
tank'you for your appreciation.
luca bossi
Vince/Luca,
I appreciate your input. Luca's suggestion that only the undercarriage of 21 - 43 was painted black offers another insight into the uniquely Italian approach to aircraft camouflage. What a shame that Italy's contribution to the Spanish Civil War is not better documented, from a historical point of view. If we had the same level of coverage as say the 'Condor Legion', then we would indeed be spoiled for choice.
Upon reflection, I think I am going to stick with black for the cowlings. Hopefully, when the model is finished, I may be able to offer a photograph for everyone's amusement, if the masking tape will come off the glazed areas after its six month sojourn. ( Unlike the majority of people, I have not yet got to grips with all the gadgets on these computer thingies ). If Jean Barby knows of the aforementioned book, I would be interested to know its title and publisher.
Thanks to all once again.
Kind regards,
Aeroal.
I appreciate your input. Luca's suggestion that only the undercarriage of 21 - 43 was painted black offers another insight into the uniquely Italian approach to aircraft camouflage. What a shame that Italy's contribution to the Spanish Civil War is not better documented, from a historical point of view. If we had the same level of coverage as say the 'Condor Legion', then we would indeed be spoiled for choice.
Upon reflection, I think I am going to stick with black for the cowlings. Hopefully, when the model is finished, I may be able to offer a photograph for everyone's amusement, if the masking tape will come off the glazed areas after its six month sojourn. ( Unlike the majority of people, I have not yet got to grips with all the gadgets on these computer thingies ). If Jean Barby knows of the aforementioned book, I would be interested to know its title and publisher.
Thanks to all once again.
Kind regards,
Aeroal.
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Stefano
- Generale di Brigata Aerea
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:40 pm
- Location: Padua, Italy
Aeroal,
I hope you'll appreciate a view from the other side of 21-35.
You can see that the darker colour in the centre fuselage band had been at least partially applied on the middle tone colour. About the hues, there is nothing sure about them. Those photos had been shooted during the battle of Guadalajara, in March 1937. By that time, S.81s of Regia Aeronautica wore both the overall Ivory and the band colour pattern. So, it is logical to believe that 21-35 had the first pattern and had been overpainted in Spain with available paints. Which hues? B/W tone contrast suggests at least two possibilities: a reddish brown (the darker), similar to Marrone Mim 2 and light, vivid green, like Verde Mim 1, or a dark green (the darker) and mild brown. In my opinion the first was the most probable scheme, for two reasons: it is known that the first camo trials in Spain were done using Railway colours, lacking specific paints. The second reason is because those colours, with Giallo Mim 1 (very close to Ivory) and Grigio Mim, were the same used by SIAI for the band scheme (some batch of SIAI paints could have been sent to Spain).
As for the engine cowlings colour, in my opinion they were black, like the radiator cowlings of band-camouflaged CR 32s, as it was believed at time that the black colour could better disipate the heat.
To Vince, S.81s were really used as night bombers, later in the war. With the coming of the S.79s, they were passed to night operations in order to avoid the faster I-16s.
At last, the book you mean is: "L'aviation légionnaire - tome 1" by Juan Arràez Cerda, TMA Editions. As far as I know, the book has been announced, but never published. Perhaps Jean has some news on it. The only books published (in Italian) on Aviazione Legionaria are "Ali nella tragedia di Spagna" by Nicola Malizia and "Guerra di Spagna e Aviazione Italiana" by Ferdinando Pedriali (the img above had been taken by this book). Both are however rather incomplete. Jesus Salas Larrazabal's book deals mainly of Spanish Nationalist activity, quite ignoring the main Italian and German contribution. To date, a detailed day-per-day account of Regia Aeronautica participation to Spanish War is sadly lacking.
Stefano
I hope you'll appreciate a view from the other side of 21-35.
You can see that the darker colour in the centre fuselage band had been at least partially applied on the middle tone colour. About the hues, there is nothing sure about them. Those photos had been shooted during the battle of Guadalajara, in March 1937. By that time, S.81s of Regia Aeronautica wore both the overall Ivory and the band colour pattern. So, it is logical to believe that 21-35 had the first pattern and had been overpainted in Spain with available paints. Which hues? B/W tone contrast suggests at least two possibilities: a reddish brown (the darker), similar to Marrone Mim 2 and light, vivid green, like Verde Mim 1, or a dark green (the darker) and mild brown. In my opinion the first was the most probable scheme, for two reasons: it is known that the first camo trials in Spain were done using Railway colours, lacking specific paints. The second reason is because those colours, with Giallo Mim 1 (very close to Ivory) and Grigio Mim, were the same used by SIAI for the band scheme (some batch of SIAI paints could have been sent to Spain).
As for the engine cowlings colour, in my opinion they were black, like the radiator cowlings of band-camouflaged CR 32s, as it was believed at time that the black colour could better disipate the heat.
To Vince, S.81s were really used as night bombers, later in the war. With the coming of the S.79s, they were passed to night operations in order to avoid the faster I-16s.
At last, the book you mean is: "L'aviation légionnaire - tome 1" by Juan Arràez Cerda, TMA Editions. As far as I know, the book has been announced, but never published. Perhaps Jean has some news on it. The only books published (in Italian) on Aviazione Legionaria are "Ali nella tragedia di Spagna" by Nicola Malizia and "Guerra di Spagna e Aviazione Italiana" by Ferdinando Pedriali (the img above had been taken by this book). Both are however rather incomplete. Jesus Salas Larrazabal's book deals mainly of Spanish Nationalist activity, quite ignoring the main Italian and German contribution. To date, a detailed day-per-day account of Regia Aeronautica participation to Spanish War is sadly lacking.
Stefano
SM81 in Spain
Stefano,
Thank you for the absolutely superb photograph of the port side of the SM81. This now means the camouflage for this side will no longer be a guess. How well I can replicate it is another matter. I agree with your conclusions for the camouflage colours and the enlightenment on the supposed heat dissipating properties of the black cowling paint explains it all.
I am certain that there is film available of this machine in operation, I think in one of the 'Istituto Luce' documentaries. The quality of the film has so degraded over the years, that although the aircraft codes can be made out, the niceties of the camouflage scheme are impossible to discern.
I greatly appreciate the help and kindness of all who took the time and trouble to reply.
Regards,
Aeroal.
Thank you for the absolutely superb photograph of the port side of the SM81. This now means the camouflage for this side will no longer be a guess. How well I can replicate it is another matter. I agree with your conclusions for the camouflage colours and the enlightenment on the supposed heat dissipating properties of the black cowling paint explains it all.
I am certain that there is film available of this machine in operation, I think in one of the 'Istituto Luce' documentaries. The quality of the film has so degraded over the years, that although the aircraft codes can be made out, the niceties of the camouflage scheme are impossible to discern.
I greatly appreciate the help and kindness of all who took the time and trouble to reply.
Regards,
Aeroal.
To add to Stefano's list of publications in Italian, I have a copy of an A5 suize booklet called 'Spagna 1936-39 - l'aviazione legionaria. I bought it second hand last time I was in Milano (it's from 1973) and it has many (small) images of the various aircraft operated by the Italian forces in Spain.
And for those interested in the opposite side: Italiani nell'aviazione repubblicana Spagnola from Edizioni Aeronautiche Italiane, from 1980. Most images cover the various Republican types, although there are a few images covering Nationalist aircraft.
Peter
And for those interested in the opposite side: Italiani nell'aviazione repubblicana Spagnola from Edizioni Aeronautiche Italiane, from 1980. Most images cover the various Republican types, although there are a few images covering Nationalist aircraft.
Peter
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Stefano
- Generale di Brigata Aerea
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:40 pm
- Location: Padua, Italy
To Aeroal:
The photo from that images serie are by Ufficio Storico Aeronautica Militare, so I don't think there is a LUCE movie on this. However Istituto LUCE site is http://www.luce.it/. With a login, you can search among all the movies and photos in the archive. They are in low definition, but you can buy them on a sharper definition in CD.
I'm sure you'll also appreciate this action image from the serie, by Pedriali's book. As told, it was taken during The Battle of Guadalajara. The 21-35 is on the very background.
As for the camo, the only suggestion I can give you is act as painters did: apply codes and black disk on ivory background. Paint the green bands on fuselage and tailfin, then handfree spray the arabesque bands, contouring codes & insignia, at a close distance (the arabesque has been surely sprayed, but appears quite sharp). Then paint the white crosses only on fixed part of top wing. To me would be an enterprise, but I'm sure that great modelers like Jean Barby and Luca Bossi can give you some hints & tips.
To Peter I.:
Yes, of course, but the first is a photo book like "Wings over Spain" (and with the same author) and the second is an excellent book on few Italian volunteers in the Republican side, and has little of AL.
What I meant is that a book which makes an accurate and complete reconstruction of Italian "official" participation to Spanish war, based on unit and personal logbook, and archive documents from Italy and Spain, is still lacking. I mean something like "Quelli del Cavallino Rampante", or the Grub Street serie, or "Desert Prelude", a forthcoming book by Hakan Gustavsson and Ludovico Slongo on the first year of air battles in North Africa. A source of names, facts, actions and possibly aircraft codes: I find it's a great satisfaction to build a model and know the aircraft you are reproducing did that particular action. In the past, I made models only to later discover that the actual aircraft had been shot down at first action, or was never used in combat. That's why I started to study the story of each aircraft, and that's why my articles in this site are born, to share my info to all modeler friends with the support of Vince.
The French book as above, which presumably will be followed by at least another volume, hopefully promises to be complete. I wrote to the pubisher for info, but I had no answer.
There are, however, some pilots' autobiographies in Italian, which deals accurately of their participation to Spanish war; among them, those of Corrado Ricci and Giuseppe Ruzzin, but those of course are a little part of the theme.
Stefano
The photo from that images serie are by Ufficio Storico Aeronautica Militare, so I don't think there is a LUCE movie on this. However Istituto LUCE site is http://www.luce.it/. With a login, you can search among all the movies and photos in the archive. They are in low definition, but you can buy them on a sharper definition in CD.
I'm sure you'll also appreciate this action image from the serie, by Pedriali's book. As told, it was taken during The Battle of Guadalajara. The 21-35 is on the very background.
As for the camo, the only suggestion I can give you is act as painters did: apply codes and black disk on ivory background. Paint the green bands on fuselage and tailfin, then handfree spray the arabesque bands, contouring codes & insignia, at a close distance (the arabesque has been surely sprayed, but appears quite sharp). Then paint the white crosses only on fixed part of top wing. To me would be an enterprise, but I'm sure that great modelers like Jean Barby and Luca Bossi can give you some hints & tips.
To Peter I.:
Yes, of course, but the first is a photo book like "Wings over Spain" (and with the same author) and the second is an excellent book on few Italian volunteers in the Republican side, and has little of AL.
What I meant is that a book which makes an accurate and complete reconstruction of Italian "official" participation to Spanish war, based on unit and personal logbook, and archive documents from Italy and Spain, is still lacking. I mean something like "Quelli del Cavallino Rampante", or the Grub Street serie, or "Desert Prelude", a forthcoming book by Hakan Gustavsson and Ludovico Slongo on the first year of air battles in North Africa. A source of names, facts, actions and possibly aircraft codes: I find it's a great satisfaction to build a model and know the aircraft you are reproducing did that particular action. In the past, I made models only to later discover that the actual aircraft had been shot down at first action, or was never used in combat. That's why I started to study the story of each aircraft, and that's why my articles in this site are born, to share my info to all modeler friends with the support of Vince.
The French book as above, which presumably will be followed by at least another volume, hopefully promises to be complete. I wrote to the pubisher for info, but I had no answer.
There are, however, some pilots' autobiographies in Italian, which deals accurately of their participation to Spanish war; among them, those of Corrado Ricci and Giuseppe Ruzzin, but those of course are a little part of the theme.
Stefano
SM81 in Spain
Sorry, Vince,
This now seems to be a two or three way discussion.
Stefano,
Thank you for another picture of superb clarity. You have pointed out to me something I didn't notice, in spite of having studied the aircraft for a long time - the background to the verde bands is obviously cachi avorio, but the background to the marrone banding is verde and not cachi avorio. This has saved me from making a major mistake in the painting. How could I have been so daft not to have seen this? Without your insight, I would have painted both the verde and marrone on a cachi avorio background and then have spent hours scratching my head wondering why it didn't look right!
The model is already in cachi avorio, sprayed over pre-painted white and black areas to correspond with the Nationalist markings. I have drawn the markings on the computer and have cut them out in Tamiya tape which was stuck on prior to applying the cachi avorio. It just awaits the verde and marrone. In this instance, 'just' represents a very big word!
I very much agree with Stefano, in that I cannot bring myself to model an aircraft without a photograph of the said machine. Why deal in 'guestimation', when reality is there to be represented in all its glory.
Thank you for your assistance once again.
Kindest regards,
Aeroal.
This now seems to be a two or three way discussion.
Stefano,
Thank you for another picture of superb clarity. You have pointed out to me something I didn't notice, in spite of having studied the aircraft for a long time - the background to the verde bands is obviously cachi avorio, but the background to the marrone banding is verde and not cachi avorio. This has saved me from making a major mistake in the painting. How could I have been so daft not to have seen this? Without your insight, I would have painted both the verde and marrone on a cachi avorio background and then have spent hours scratching my head wondering why it didn't look right!
The model is already in cachi avorio, sprayed over pre-painted white and black areas to correspond with the Nationalist markings. I have drawn the markings on the computer and have cut them out in Tamiya tape which was stuck on prior to applying the cachi avorio. It just awaits the verde and marrone. In this instance, 'just' represents a very big word!
I very much agree with Stefano, in that I cannot bring myself to model an aircraft without a photograph of the said machine. Why deal in 'guestimation', when reality is there to be represented in all its glory.
Thank you for your assistance once again.
Kindest regards,
Aeroal.