Question for Stefano (and for all other people interested)
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- Generale di Brigata Aerea
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Question for Stefano (and for all other people interested)
I meant interested in Italian camouflage; I have found this image with google images, where it is possible to find many color images from Life magazine; (this is the only one concerning Italian warplanes).
As you can see the fuselage has a different camouflage from the visible wing. But in both the Nocciola chiaro has not the hue corresponding to FS 30219; what can we think? The color has changed its hue due to the weathering? Perhaps there was another hue of this color? If I want to reproduce a subject with this camouflage, which color is correct?
This question because this is not the only known color photo with the hue not similar to the classic FS reference
Riccardo
As you can see the fuselage has a different camouflage from the visible wing. But in both the Nocciola chiaro has not the hue corresponding to FS 30219; what can we think? The color has changed its hue due to the weathering? Perhaps there was another hue of this color? If I want to reproduce a subject with this camouflage, which color is correct?
This question because this is not the only known color photo with the hue not similar to the classic FS reference
Riccardo
Riccardo Trotta
Re: Color photo
Ciao Riccardo. As it happened the Nocchiola chiaro turned a kind of light brown when under wear and sun. I did get such a shade by mixing my Nocchiola chiaro with 4 measures of white until I did get a similar hue. Check on my MC202 in the gallery and you ll see what I mean. Ciao e a presto, jean;
http://www.stormomagazine.com/ModelArti ... _JB_1.html
http://www.stormomagazine.com/ModelArti ... _JB_1.html
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- Pilota
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- Generale di Brigata Aerea
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C202 168-11
I agree Jean about the matching with the drawings of Ali d'Italia, but it does not match with the painted chip in the CMPR camouflage book issued in 1979; so we have to think that the weathering has changed the color.
I add another photo from a March 1943 magazine "L'ala d'Italia" (the title is very near to the modern booklet).
THis is a I° series built by Breda and according to one of the autors of the 1979 CMPR camouflage book, it is painted in Giallo mimetico 4 (I have a letter from him, in which he states this color); in my opinion it could be weathred Giallo mimetico 3, because this was the color used by Breda; I think it is not Nocciola chiaro because it is too yellow with respect to the aviere suit. What do you think?
Riccardo
I add another photo from a March 1943 magazine "L'ala d'Italia" (the title is very near to the modern booklet).
THis is a I° series built by Breda and according to one of the autors of the 1979 CMPR camouflage book, it is painted in Giallo mimetico 4 (I have a letter from him, in which he states this color); in my opinion it could be weathred Giallo mimetico 3, because this was the color used by Breda; I think it is not Nocciola chiaro because it is too yellow with respect to the aviere suit. What do you think?
Riccardo
Riccardo Trotta
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Rick, I wondered the same thing when I saw this extraordinary photo a few days ago.
Jean is right in his thought, but I think that aircraft has the paint too uniform to be worn by sun, sand or rain. It has been soiled and scratched only by personnel clothes and shoes, respectively below the cockpit and at wingroot. Apart this, the relic has quite no trace of dirt, nor along the seams!
The photo colours aren’t much faded (a little just for the red). The man flesh hue is credible, and the “Nocciola Chiaro” appears no darker than it. The yellow component is well represented in the withered weed on the background.
That aircraft was a Breda-built, serie VI, VIII or X. The port wing had been replaced with a Macchi-built one, wearing the typical “smoke rings”. Hues of respective VOS2 and “NC4” appear almost identical between those parts, so standard paints had been used by both factories. The interior is the same grey for undersides, which confirms that Breda used it in place of (or over) Verde Anticorrosione. The camo green matches well with Verde Oliva Scuro 2, as for Verde Mim 2. The tone difference between the sand and the grey is faint, and if you modify that shot into b/w, it almost disappear, as in the following photo of Macchi serie III MM 7806 (later 90-1 of ace Cap. Ranieri Piccolomini):
This was an official factory image of a brand-new aircraft. There is no shadow-effect, as the weather is foggy. Note that the fuselage fascio appears darker than “NC4”.
This is enough for the tone. The question remains open for the paint hue. The colour you mean seems to be a pale (and pinky?) brown. I think that the Vitocharts’ “Colore 4 variante sabbia” (FS33303), that’s a grey with a hint of brown, can be an option. As can be Giallo Mim 4, which had been used by Macchi, but not by Breda, according to CMPR.
About one year ago I met modeller and researcher Stefano Zaghetto. He kindly allowed me to examinate some colour chips took as sample during WWII and before; some were original paints. One of these chips corresponded to FS30475, and had the following handwritten note on its background: “Colore 4 chiaro, MC 202 Comiso”. This colour seemed strange to me, at time, but now I think it fits pretty good with that photo, and this could be a confirmation of its use.
After all this, is the classic FS30219 to be thrown away? No, of course. But we must keep in mind that the famous Tavola 10, announced in 1941, had been distributed later at an unknown date, and the example recovered has a postwar rubber stamp on its frontside. However, later in the war, the camo background became darker, as shown by the following images from D’Amico-Valentini’s Camouflage and Markings of ANR, Classic Colours, 2005 (in the colour shot the fascio is lighter than Nocciola Chiaro, this time):
In the meeting as above, I had also the opportunity to examinate an original paint chip by an ANR MC.205 shot down some 20 kilometers from my home, and recovered a few years ago. It is the only original specimen of NC4 actually applied on an aircraft, as far I know. The chip was identical to Nocciola Chiaro 4 as in CMPR’s chip table attached to its 1st edition book, in 1977. Zaghetto took a snapshot of this comparison, but I don’t own it.
I know, by personal correspondence, that Rick agrees with me that all of us trusted for more than thirty years in a book that’s not wrong, but surely is incomplete. I think that the discovering, in all this time, of colour photos, relics (see the post on Swedish Re.2000 in this forum…) and documents can reveal us many surprises.
Well, the discussion is opened!
Stefano
Jean is right in his thought, but I think that aircraft has the paint too uniform to be worn by sun, sand or rain. It has been soiled and scratched only by personnel clothes and shoes, respectively below the cockpit and at wingroot. Apart this, the relic has quite no trace of dirt, nor along the seams!
The photo colours aren’t much faded (a little just for the red). The man flesh hue is credible, and the “Nocciola Chiaro” appears no darker than it. The yellow component is well represented in the withered weed on the background.
That aircraft was a Breda-built, serie VI, VIII or X. The port wing had been replaced with a Macchi-built one, wearing the typical “smoke rings”. Hues of respective VOS2 and “NC4” appear almost identical between those parts, so standard paints had been used by both factories. The interior is the same grey for undersides, which confirms that Breda used it in place of (or over) Verde Anticorrosione. The camo green matches well with Verde Oliva Scuro 2, as for Verde Mim 2. The tone difference between the sand and the grey is faint, and if you modify that shot into b/w, it almost disappear, as in the following photo of Macchi serie III MM 7806 (later 90-1 of ace Cap. Ranieri Piccolomini):
This was an official factory image of a brand-new aircraft. There is no shadow-effect, as the weather is foggy. Note that the fuselage fascio appears darker than “NC4”.
This is enough for the tone. The question remains open for the paint hue. The colour you mean seems to be a pale (and pinky?) brown. I think that the Vitocharts’ “Colore 4 variante sabbia” (FS33303), that’s a grey with a hint of brown, can be an option. As can be Giallo Mim 4, which had been used by Macchi, but not by Breda, according to CMPR.
About one year ago I met modeller and researcher Stefano Zaghetto. He kindly allowed me to examinate some colour chips took as sample during WWII and before; some were original paints. One of these chips corresponded to FS30475, and had the following handwritten note on its background: “Colore 4 chiaro, MC 202 Comiso”. This colour seemed strange to me, at time, but now I think it fits pretty good with that photo, and this could be a confirmation of its use.
After all this, is the classic FS30219 to be thrown away? No, of course. But we must keep in mind that the famous Tavola 10, announced in 1941, had been distributed later at an unknown date, and the example recovered has a postwar rubber stamp on its frontside. However, later in the war, the camo background became darker, as shown by the following images from D’Amico-Valentini’s Camouflage and Markings of ANR, Classic Colours, 2005 (in the colour shot the fascio is lighter than Nocciola Chiaro, this time):
In the meeting as above, I had also the opportunity to examinate an original paint chip by an ANR MC.205 shot down some 20 kilometers from my home, and recovered a few years ago. It is the only original specimen of NC4 actually applied on an aircraft, as far I know. The chip was identical to Nocciola Chiaro 4 as in CMPR’s chip table attached to its 1st edition book, in 1977. Zaghetto took a snapshot of this comparison, but I don’t own it.
I know, by personal correspondence, that Rick agrees with me that all of us trusted for more than thirty years in a book that’s not wrong, but surely is incomplete. I think that the discovering, in all this time, of colour photos, relics (see the post on Swedish Re.2000 in this forum…) and documents can reveal us many surprises.
Well, the discussion is opened!
Stefano
One other thing worth pointing out in this very interesting photo is that there's no sign of anticorrision green - all the (fuselage) interior appears light grey (GAC) including the lowered flap (lower left of the photo). If anticorrosion green was applied beneath the grey, surely we would have seen flakes of it.
- Mirek Riha
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NC4
Hi all,
this is a very interesting debate. After so many years is almost impossible to find the truth. Fascio in the picture from Rick does not look blue like that, yes?. I write because the determination of any shade from the photos is difficult, depending on many circumstances. Using the earlier yellow certainly is not impossible, that Rick is right, but determining whether it is NC4 and GM3 from photograph is guesswork. Photos tone is more to yellow, see the sky or a white stripe on the fuselage... I do not know whether the colors produced in each factory, or whether there is a single supplier. And it may play a role ...
this is a very interesting debate. After so many years is almost impossible to find the truth. Fascio in the picture from Rick does not look blue like that, yes?. I write because the determination of any shade from the photos is difficult, depending on many circumstances. Using the earlier yellow certainly is not impossible, that Rick is right, but determining whether it is NC4 and GM3 from photograph is guesswork. Photos tone is more to yellow, see the sky or a white stripe on the fuselage... I do not know whether the colors produced in each factory, or whether there is a single supplier. And it may play a role ...
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- Generale di Brigata Aerea
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Nocciola color
A question for Jean; what color did you use? I know that a good reproduction of Nocciola chiaro 4 is Gunze H310. Let me know
Riccardo
Riccardo
Riccardo Trotta
Re: Nocciola color
I had a tin left over from Aeromaster, mixed with white I reached a similar tone than the one on the pictures, once again, have a look at my MC202 in the gallery and tell me what do you think. GM3, is yellow based so even with white added it will still show a yellow tinge. That's why I do not beleive it has been used for the color in the photo. What works with scale down works also at a 1/1 scale. Ciao Riccardo.Rick wrote:A question for Jean; what color did you use? I know that a good reproduction of Nocciola chiaro 4 is Gunze H310. Let me know
Riccardo
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- Generale di Brigata Aerea
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Federal Standard, question to Jean
Excuse me Jean, what I would like to know is if you have used as base color something similar to the light brown FS 30219 to be mixed with white, just to understand if it is possible to obtain a hue similar to the one of your C202 starting from Gunze color; sorry if I was not clear in my previous request
Riccardo
Riccardo
Riccardo Trotta
Re: Federal Standard, question to Jean
yes my dear friend and this color was Aeromaster Nocchiola chiaro, quite similar to gunze H310!.Rick wrote:Excuse me Jean, what I would like to know is if you have used as base color something similar to the light brown FS 30219 to be mixed with white, just to understand if it is possible to obtain a hue similar to the one of your C202 starting from Gunze color; sorry if I was not clear in my previous request
Riccardo