STORMO! Forums

Hello All,
I hate to flog a dead horse, but I feel this time I have to bring this up for discussion.
I have a copy of Marco Mattioli's book, 53 Stormo, published by OSPREY Aviation Elite Units: 53 STORMO.

The last chapter of the book is "The Last battles" and on page 113, a paragraph reads that on the 8th of September
150 B17s of the 5th Bomber Wing mounted a raid near Frascati. To counter this attack 24 Axis planes were scrambled
and among them Gigi Tre Osei BF 109s. The Messerschmitt flown by Tenente Giovanni Chiale shot down B17 45-5147,
"OLD IRONSIDES" of the 414th BS of the 97BG killing seven of its crew and sending three others into captivity.

As usual, the Americans attributed the loss to enenmy flak and not shot down by an Italian pilot!!
I did some further research on this aircraft and sure enough, on this website : https://b17flyingfortress.de/en/?s=42-5147
It reads: "B17 45-5147 Missing in Action Frascati 8/9/43; flak, crashed ? ; Missing Air Crew Report 720. OLD IRONSIDES."

There are other examples of this in other publications, where Allies would never admit to being shot down by Italian pilots.
One would think that in the year 2023, with all kind of research tools, records, diaries and authors on both sides of the war,
truth and actual facts would be revealed.
Not so, seems that WW2 propaganda, bias and prejudice are still alive and well!
Any thoughts?

No doubt Vince, for the most part the Allies were reluctant to admit losses to RA pilots (and also on the ground in battles with the RE). However I'm just as reluctant to lump the US in with the others because the US, as a people, put a premium on excellence, being the best at what they do and most importantly the truth - this is at the core of their strength. Are there cases like the one you outlined here, sure, is it representative - I don't think so.

Anyway, good post and Marco Mattioli's book 53o Stormo is a must read for RA enthusiasts and historians in general. Mattioli also wrote a two part volume of the S.79 (bomber and torpedo bomber) for Osprey. I haven't yet read the two books but I'm looking forward to it.

Hi Vince,
I have another example taken from Nicola Malizia's book "Quelli Del Gatto Nero" roughly translated "The Black Cat Group".
On the 9th of September 1942, Spitfire Vs of the 185th Squadron were approaching the Sicilian coast to attack the Biscari airport.
An American pilot serving with the RAF, FLT. Serg. Claude Weaver in a Spitfire V BR12/X was part of the group attacking, when his plane was shot down and he made a crash landing on the beach.
When he was captured he told his captives that he was shot down by a German BF109!
In reality, he was shot down by Ten Pil. Paolo Damiani of the 352 SQ. 20th Gruppo 51 Stormo!
Just another example.

Document these inconsistencies and write a short article to set the record straight. On the ground, the British Official Histories still claim Bir el Gobi was a German victory and minimize their losses even though there were no Germans on the battlefield. After the battle, German general von Mellenthin surveyed the battlefield and recorded it as a major defeat for the British.

Hello,
Could it be that at High level in the US and other Allied Governments there may have been the thought that as they wanted the Italian's to swap sides and as it were, they preferred to withhold details of Allied V Italian combats ? The thinking that they did not want a rise of anti Italian feelings back home but preferred to show the home front that Italian people were really on the side of the allies .
Just my thought on this important subject.

There was also quite a bit of misidentification of aircraft (by all combatants) in the heat of combat, which may also have been relevant.
Alex